Transcript of Oral History Tape 90 Transcribed by Patty Rivera 01/18/04.
Interview with Robert Mrozinski on March 1, 1978.
Interviewer: George Schultz.
Schultz: This is an interview with Robert Mrozinski and Edward J. Layman. This is 3/1/78. Interviewer is George Schultz.
Schultz: Bob you seem to be very interested in horses. How did your interest in horses develop? Mrozinski: Oh I don’t know I was born and raised with ‘em and worked ‘em and just kinda always kinda catered to ‘em and took care of ‘em and liked ‘em.
Schultz: You’re forty-seven now. You started out with as long as early as you can remember with horses?
Mrozinski: Right. Right.
Lehman: Eight years old. Nine.
Mrozinski: About eight or nine years old I worked horses and me and my brother we would sometimes it took two of us but we got the job done.
Schultz: So did you always drive your horses at eight and nine years old?
Mrozinski: Oh yes.
Schultz: Was that typical for boys your age? Were other farm boys...
Lehman: No.
Mrozinski: Oh about all of ‘em but uh back then there was no tractors and uh you more or less had to use what you had. You know...I mean uh...most farm boys then was brought up to use horses. Today well there’s very few. They wouldn’t even know how to put a harness on a horse.
Schultz: How many horses did you have on your farm? Or describe your farm. ...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Uh I think we had six-seven...six-seven horses. We farmed about a hundred and seventy-five - eighty acres.
Schultz: Would you say it would be typical to have that many horses on a farm?
Mrozinski: Oh that was enough horses them days to take care of the...the work you know. What we had to do really cause you only put out so much corn. You didn’t till the whole farm. You had some for pasture, some for hay, some for corn, wheat...and stuff like that. It wasn’t like farming today.
Schultz: Could you describe all of the things you use a horse for on the farm.
Mrozinski: There’s hardly anything that you didn’t use him for back then. I mean...
Schultz: Plowing?
Lehman: You plow, you drug, you disc, you cultivated, you seeded.
Mrozinski: You done everything. Made your hay.
Lehman: Made your hay with horses. Mowed it down and hauled it up. And them days they wasn’t in bales. They had a big track ran along the barn just like this and clear outside you stuck that fork down in there and you just pick up the whole bunch and put it right up there in the barn. Now that’s all done by horses.
Schultz: The horses would even pull the...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Right.
Lehman: Yeah.
Mrozinski: Right. Pull the rope.
Lehman: Pull the rope.
Mrozinski: The hay fork what they call it back then. Today it’s elevators and bales.
Schultz: Why did you have six horses on the farm?
Mrozinski: Well it always took three to a plow. Sometimes you used more. It’s all according to how big a plow you had. The one bottom plow you mostly used three and then you could walk right along. Unless you had a gang plow. That was two bottom. Then you could put six...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: That was later though.
Mrozinski: That was a little bit later.
Lehman: Yes.
Schultz: Then the average plow was a one bottom plow?
Mrozinski: Right. At that time yes. It...
Schultz: How deep were you plowing?
Mrozinski: Oh eight inches.
Lehman: Six-seven-eight inches.
Mrozinski: Yeah. A lot of difference in...
Schultz: And you would walk along you wouldn’t ride?
Mrozinski: Uh...
Lehman: They come out with riding plows.
Mrozinski: Later on.
Lehman: Later on.
Schultz: What time are we talking about? What year?
Mrozinski: That’s back before...that was maybe when you...
Lehman: In the twenties.
Mrozinski: You remember back in the twenties when they used the first dragging plow?
Lehman: Yeah.
Mrozinski: That was before my time cause we had...we had ‘em both then when I was...
Lehman: 1928 when I started working for...[indecipherable]...we had a riding plow.
Mrozinski: You had a riding plow?
Lehman: Yeah.
Schultz: Okay uhm...
Lehman: Then they got so they had riding cultivators where you cultivated your corn you know...weeded. Cultivating...we call it cultivating. Always before it was you know you walked behind and you did it by hand you know. Walking cultivator. Well then uh...about that same time they come out with a riding cultivator.
Mrozinski: Right. I don’t remember when they came out but I used ‘em.
Lehman: Yeah well that’s when I did. Now 1928. Now it coulda been out to these bigger farmer areas that probably mighta had. Because you see we didn’t get all around the country like they do today. Today you get in your car and you go for miles. Well them days was horse and buggy days you know. You just didn’t...
Mrozinski: Ten miles away from home was about it.
Lehman: Oh God darn I guess so.
Mrozinski: That was a long way see.
Schultz: Would you have a horse that you would use just for riding or were all your animals work horses.
Mrozinski: Back then you worked ‘em you didn’t do much riding. Maybe you had a driving horse I guess.
Lehman: Yeah.
Mrozinski: But uh your riding horses didn’t come in till later on. Ed, when did they come in?
Lehman: Riding horses didn’t come in until oh earlier thirties.
Mrozinski: Sometime in the thirties?
Lehman: Yeah. Uh see then your tractors and your stuff come in where they got more or less rid of your uh work horses and uh then they developed into a smaller horse to hitch to a buggy or jump on his back and uh ride. Now that’s what’s called...
Mrozinski: It was kind of a pleasure horse you know.
Lehman: Yeah a pleasure horse.
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...too unusual. Most of ‘em...most of the farmers had traded in their horses for a fancier car or bigger tractor. You kept your horses now. Can you try and explain why?
Mrozinski: Well you can’t say you kept ‘em. You traded around cause they would be an age today that they’re gone but uh...I don’t know I kinda like to show horses and I’ve pulled horses and I’ve done some logging with horses and I just always liked to take care of horses and work ‘em.
Lehman: You farmed quite a little with horses.
Mrozinski: I farmed quite a bit with ‘em when I first got married. And uh...I don’t know I always liked to keep a nice lookin’ pair around. There’s quite a demand for ‘em today. Uh...there’s a lot of people that uh...keep ‘em more or less just for show. And I do use ‘em some but uh...I like to show myself. Today your harnesses are on the end of a thousand-two thousand dollars per pair. Back them days I remember when my dad bought a harness for sixty-five dollars.
Lehman: Sixty-five dollars. That’s right.
Mrozinski: So you can see the difference in times. You know.
Schultz: You mentioned caring for a horse. What was it like? What would be an average uh...thing that you’d have to do for a horse every day? What you still have to do for a horse every day?
Mrozinski: Well.
Schultz: And what are some of the special things that you’d have to do for a horse?
Mrozinski: Oh if you want to keep ‘em up lookin’ nice and everything well you...
Lehman: Have to brush ‘em.
Mrozinski: You gotta brush ‘em and keep ‘em up lookin’ nice and...and give ‘em the proper amount of feed. Just don’t turn ‘em out and forget about ‘em. I keep mine in the barn nights all the time and turn ‘em out during the day when the weather’s decent if you wanna keep ‘em lookin’ half way decent well you wanna keep ‘em in. If it isn’t too cold you can turn ‘em out. But uh...when you go to sellin’ and tradin’ a few you always want your horses lookin’ kinda nice. Feed ‘em the proper feed and everything.
Lehman: Well if during the summer we have a lot of uh...oh we...we’re in the parades up here every year. In Michigan City. The parade with a team. And then we go...[indecipherable]...it’s all over see.
Mrozinski: And you don’t wanna bring a pair in with hair two-three inches long you know.
Lehman: No. You want something that’s...that’s smooth you know.
Mrozinski: Something that looks decent.
Lehman: Because you’re gonna have your harness all polished up anyway you know. All decked up and uh...you wouldn’t want a horse come out...
Mrozinski: Then you go to these plowing deals they got today all over the country. You wanna kinda keep up with the next guy.
Schultz: Uh...did the farmers back then who actually used these horses for their life because...uh take as much pride in the appearance as you men talk about?
Mrozinski: Some did and some didn’t. Some just strictly work and I mean work. Then some of ‘em they took a little care of ‘em and worked ‘em too. But uh they fed good. Their horses looked good when they uh worked ‘em hard if they fed ‘em. If they didn’t feed ‘em well you couldn’t fit the harness proper they had sore shoulders and everything else. But that was a difference in people.
Lehman: Oh yes.
Schultz: Okay now we’re talking about a specific kind of animal right here that’s a draft horse. Uh...uh...would you want to describe that for people who aren’t familiar with the draft horse and how he’s different from the horse...the wagon horse that they’re more familiar with?
Mrozinski: Well your draft horse is a lot heavier boned horse. He’s built for more rugged than your...your saddle horse. He’s uh...heavier boned, bigger footed, get over the ground. They’re just a tougher horse.
Schultz: What’s the difference in weight between a saddle horse and a...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: I’d say a thousand pounds.
Lehman: You get some mighty horses you get weigh a thousand pounds.
Schultz: What is your average draft horse pounds?
Mrozinski: Oh I’d say today about sixteen-seventeen-eighteen hundred pounds.
Lehman: About eighteen hundred is the average now I’d say about.
Schultz: And what breeds are you talking about now?
Mrozinski: Belgian, Persian, and then there’s your cross breeds. But mostly today is Belgian and Persian is your biggest breed. There’s a few Clydesdales around.
Lehman: But they don’t get that big though Bob.
Mrozinski: No they don’t get as big I don’t think. They is...they was more or less a wagon horse. Lehman: Wagon...trail horses. You know.
Mrozinski: But they use ‘em in town like on delivery and stuff like that.
Lehman: Milk...[indecipherable]...
Schultz: You use a lighter horse to...for delivery work than you would in the field then?
Mrozinski: Oh some did. Some didn’t.
Lehman: Yes they did now.
Mrozinski: They did use...
Lehman: I seen some...[indecipherable]...light horses.
Mrozinski: Oh I remember there in Chicago they...
Lehman: The only thing is you talked about having three. They had four.
Mrozinski: Yeah?
Lehman: See they would hitch up four in abreast and plow and work ‘em where Bob would like you say we did...we had the bigger horse...these three horses could handle the same amount as these four lighter...
Mrozinski: But there in Chicago I seen ‘em on these delivery wagons. They’d use big horses.
Lehman: Oh yes. Oh yes. You bet.
Mrozinski: Use big horses.
Schultz: Uh what would the animals like this eat a day...or were...is...[indecipherable]...mattered I’m not sure.
Mrozinski: Not too much if you wanna keep your horse lookin’ decent. I’d say today that uh you take a big horse’ll eat about a half a bale of hay a day. And about ten-twelve ears of corn and a gallon of oats.
Lehman: Yeah.
Mrozinski: But today you mostly uh...you got your corn mostly shelled and crimped and you mix in your vitamins and molasses and everything like that so uh...uh...you more or less mix up your own formula.
Lehman: Of course them days ...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Them days all it was was ears of corn, a gallon of oats, and that was it you know.
Schultz: And what does it cost today compared to what it would cost then to...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Oh I don’t like to even talk about that.
Lehman: Oh boy.
Mrozinski: I mean it’s a hobby today and you more or less just go ahead and feed ‘em. I don’t know.
Lehman: I imagine Bob it...about fifteen horses and you back when you was home with your dad. Course them horses worked hard then. Uh you pay...you’d feed probably.
Mrozinski: Again as much.
Lehman: Again as much. Today as we did them days.
Mrozinski: They keep ‘em up real fat.
Lehman: Because they keep ‘em...you know nowadays they keep ‘em as fat as you can get ‘em you know.
Mrozinski: Well you’ve seen some of the pictures here that they’re...they’re big and strong. Actually they’re not as hardened then like they was years ago but they’re...they’re a...nice looking horse today.
Lehman: You couldn’t take that team of horses out and plow ‘em and drag ‘em all day.
Mrozinski: Not until you had ‘em really hardened in.
Lehman: You have to work ‘em a while...
Mrozinski: These horses don’t work too hard.
Lehman: Yeah. Cause you’re not used to it. You know. You take a horse...or you take a person. You just sit around for two-three weeks. When you get up to go out you gonna be...[indecipherable]... I’m kinda suggesting this is me myself. This winter I didn’t get out very much and I know it’s gonna be hard on me this spring when I get out...which I didn’t do much now that I’m retired. But uh...
Mrozinski: I think everybody realizes that. With all the snow we had.
Lehman: Look at your dad how he slowed down.
Schultz: Speaking of snow...the horses were very important to move things in the winter time. You wanna describe how they would do it then?
Mrozinski: Oh they had bobsleds. In fact I still got my dad’s bobsled. And they haul wood in.
Lehman: Haul the feed.
Mrozinski: And the haul the feed from town. Hauled hay to town...the different livery stables.
Lehman: Them days you have to haul milk to the...well...over in our way the South Shore picked it up. Well now we lived a couple miles from that South Shore but we had to get it there in the morning. When it was time that milk train went through.
Mrozinski: But a lot of ‘em hauled directly to the train...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: Oh yeah. Oh yes. Yeah.
Mrozinski: Summertime you’d haul it in a little wagon. Maybe in the wintertime on a bobsled.
Lehman: Yeah. When I worked for Claude Hohman (?sp) in 1919...[indecipherable]...Mitchell. In the wintertime boy you kept a team horse you let walk slow. Clear to Galien, Michigan which was about five miles. Took all day.
Schultz: Took all day to go how many miles?
Lehman: Five miles. Up and down.
Mrozinski: When the snow is real deep you know you take your time.
Lehman: You know you’re pushing the horses too that you had to stop ‘em. You had to rest ‘em. After we got the milk unloaded and maybe we went in and had something to eat and let the horses rest. Blanket ‘em. You know because they were sweaty. They was awful sweaty. We go into the place and have a cup of coffee or something to eat. And on the way back. Same thing here they are wallering through this. You couldn’t hurry ‘em any. If fact it was just to the light...[indecipherable]...they went a little...we took a lighter team they went on a little trot. If we was back at noon.
Mrozinski: Yeah you’d make a fast trip see.
Lehman: Yeah we’d make...quick...make a fast trip.
Mrozinski: It’s all according to what your weather was back then.
Lehman: Yeah them days you know they didn’t have snow plows or stuff like we got today. Yeah.
Schultz: Uhm...I read that you would wait for winter time to do the very heavy loads because you could slide more than you could wheel. Is that the case?
Mrozinski: Well if you was loggin’ in the woods. Your logs skidded easier on the snow than they did on the bare dirt.
Lehman: Oh yes. Oh yes.
Mrozinski: But uh overall well you’d more or less pick out your...your work for the winter and then you had your farming during the summer.
Schultz: You’re the only one I know who remembers horse logging or has ever done any. Can you describe how you’d do logging?
Mrozinski: Well you’d saw your tree down and trim it out and have your log maybe it was what fourteen-sixteen foot log and...
Lehman: ...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: ...all different sizes and you’d uh drag ‘em out of the woods on a plow or...or maybe they had a sawmill in there and they...
Lehman: In them days they didn’t. You’d have to haul ‘em.
Mrozinski: You’d have to haul ‘em.
Lehman: See because they used to load ‘em like that in Rolling Prairie you know.
Mrozinski: Load ‘em on the wagon and take ‘em to the train.
Lehman: Take ‘em up to the train and they’d load ‘em in big gondola cars you know and then ship ‘em.
Mrozinski: And ship ‘em to a big mill.
Lehman: ...[indecipherable]...picked up sawmills around.
Mrozinski: Portable sawmills. And they used ‘em for blocking and stuff these logs and you know different kinds of lumber and everything else. And in the wintertime that was kind of a side line job where you could go skid logs for somebody and some...some outfit. They was always kinda doing in the wintertime and that way they could get the farmers to come in and get their logs. Some of ‘em had their own teams too. But then they’d get a lot more lumber out.
Schultz: Uhm...[indecipherable]...logs?
Mrozinski: Some you got on a sled and then some of ‘em you just skid ‘em like that. You’d have your regular log tongs.
Lehman: They...they looked like a pair of shears only they got hooks on ‘em and chains.
Mrozinski: Right.
Schultz: But if you were gonna haul logs...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Oh yeah and then load ‘em on your wagon.
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...what would your average...uh what would...
Mrozinski: How many tons? On that wagon? Oh gosh I don’t know it weighs uh...
Lehman: Well I don’t know how...oh God I did a lot of skiddin’ but I don’t know how to figure a log the size...
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...logs how big in diameter?
Mrozinski: Maybe two feet in diameter what would you get? Four or five on?
Lehman: About four.
Mrozinski: About four good logs.
Lehman: And that would run you close to two ton. The way I looked at it.
Mrozinski: To a log?
Lehman: No. The whole load.
Mrozinski: Oh it’d be heavier than that.
Lehman: Well...
Mrozinski: Oh if you only had them small logs yes.
Lehman: Yeah...yeah. But now I seen them guys have just two logs.
Mrozinski: Big logs.
Lehman: ...[indecipherable]... And that guy told me he said he had that in five ton.
Mrozinski: On a wagon.
Lehman: On a wagon.
Mrozinski: Well you can just...just like we was talkin’ you can take a pair of work horses and take ‘em an empty boxcar and it takes an awful good pair of horses to get it rollin’. They gotta stay right there until that car starts...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: See a boxcar is so solid and if this horse will stay there and hang and hang it’ll finally give and he will walk.
Mrozinski: After you once get it started you...
Lehman: ...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: ...could practically push it by hand. But you take a...a heavy load like that...it’s hard to start.
Schultz: Okay. Now uh...oxen were used for a while and then horses were used. Now what’s the difference? Why would someone use oxen while someone else uses horses?
Mrozinski: I think your oxen were years and years back.
Lehman: ...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: I remember one or two up around here.
Lehman: Yeah well this guy had a...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: They was awful slow. When I was in the service we had some. And I uh was in a town that’s all they had was oxen and their big farm was maybe five-six acres. And...and they would go out and use ‘em. They was awful slow. That was the first time I ever had anything to do with an oxen. You know I was in the service. But it was something different. It was interesting.
Lehman: Well years and years and years ago now...course our grandfathers years back could tell that you know oxens that way. I stayed with my mother’s folks when I was twelve years old and down the road about a mile there was an old guy there. He had a team of these oxen. My granddad said to me one day...he said why don’t you go up there and see that. He says I...I seen so much of it and I worked too much with it that I don’t...I don’t wanna see no more. I went up there and they learned that animal. All they do is talk to it. And they plow with it and do everything. Of course they just...you know how a critter like that will just walk along.
Mrozinski: Real slow.
Lehman: But they didn’t put out very much see. What they did it was all theirs. They got the job done but it was slow.
Lehman: Slow.
Schultz: The horses moving faster do you think that’s the main reason they switched uh...to horses?
Lehman: Yes. Much faster it was. Uh...a horse they could use in the wintertime where they couldn’t use a oxen.
Mrozinski: You could use a horse year round you know in different work. But an oxen it would be awful hard.
Lehman: Well oxens in the wintertime all they did maybe took a two wheel cart and went out in the woods and picked up a bunch of brush and...
Mrozinski: Twigs and stuff.
Lehman: ...[indecipherable]...you know something like that. But for horses you could travel. Let’s say go from here ten miles out.
Mrozinski: Oxen’ll take ya forever.
Lehman: Oh it’d take you a week.
Mrozinski: Yeah they’d get there but it would take you forever to get there.
Lehman: And a team of horses you could...
Mrozinski: Walk right along.
Lehman: ...walk right along. My dad used to tell from Rolling Prairie haul hay up here to Michigan City with a team of horses.
Schultz: How long would that take you? From Rolling Prairie to Michigan City?
Mrozinski: Take ya a day to make a round trip.
Lehman: It took him all day. He’d load it in the morning...er the day before. And then tomorrow morning at the break of day we’d start out. Course we didn’t have the roads then either. All we had uh...it was all dirt roads too.
Mrozinski: I still got the bobsled my dad hauled hay to South Bend with.
Lehman: That’s right. Now that’s from Rolling Prairie to South Bend was a long ways.
Mrozinski: Yep. And he hauled it.
Lehman: And they left before daylight and it was way after daylight when they got home.
Mrozinski: It’s a Studebaker bobsled. Very few of them around anymore.
Schultz: Uhm...let me ask you about how you’d break or train a horse...uh to be a draft horse. How would you do that?
Mrozinski: Well...
Schultz: How long would it take?
Mrozinski: How long would it take? Well it’s all according to how much time you put in with ‘em. I’ve broke a few horses and you most generally take an older horse and uh just hitch him up and tie him along the side of the older horse and you just keep going along with him until they catch on. I think it’s partly bred into ‘em.
Lehman: Oh it has to be bred in.
Mrozinski: Some. And then you get some that you can’t hardly train.
Lehman: No you get any western horses up here you know...there son of a guns. It takes forever to break ‘em you know.
Mrozinski: Your horses now I would say they’re easy to break. It don’t take too long.
Lehman: ...[indecipherable]...is what you do with ‘em when they’re young.
Mrozinski: You don’t wanna work ‘em hard but you wanna learn ‘em how to drive and steer but you can guide ‘em with the reins and...and stuff like that and give ‘em a command.
Schultz: What are some of the commands...[indecipherable]...say you were driving right now. How would you talk to the horses.
Mrozinski: Oh I..
Lehman: Gee and Ha and...
Mrozinski: Yeah it’s kinda hard to describe but Gee is to your right and Ha is to your left.
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...you must be...[indecipherable]...when you tell it to the horse.
Mrozinski: Well it’s all according to what mood you’re in. It makes a lot of difference what kind of a horse you got.
Lehman: One time I asked a guy I says is that that horses name cause he...[indecipherable]... He says yeah.
Mrozinski: You run across all kinds of people but uh...
Lehman: But as a rule Ho and Get Up, Gee and Ha. And...
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: It takes time like anything else. It’s like training a kid. You don’t get it done in one day. So you just keep playing with ‘em.
Schultz: How old are they before you start training...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: I mostly start at two.
Schultz: When do you...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: Four-five.
Mrozinski: Five.
Schultz: How long do you...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Oh I’ve seen horses live twenty-five years. But uh...
Lehman: They never worked hard.
Mrozinski: They never worked too hard. You take a horse from four years to twelve-fifteen is the best life...you know I mean right in there it’s all according to how hard you work him.
Schultz: And how long would they last...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Oh I don’t know I seen him have some there quite a while according to how good of a horse they was. You know. If they hold up good and...and you keep a horse up like anything else. Keep their teeth floated and everything so they keep their weight up. Oh a horse I’d say be good fifteen years old on a farm.
Schultz: What do you mean by float their teeth?
Mrozinski: Well a horse it gets hooks on his teeth and it hits his gums and if you don’t keep uh...you know some horses never do get hooks on their teeth and uh some do and if they get hooks on their teeth and it comes down on their gum they can’t chew. And you have a vet file them. But sometimes you don’t ever have to do it and then some horses you gotta do it maybe once a year, once every two-three years. You can tell when they eat their grain.
Lehman: A lot of times you...you can tell on your weight of a horse and lot of times you back up and...and really back in. Now what would you think was wrong with that horse. He’s wormy. He has worms.
Mrozinski: Rub his tail and...
Lehman: You know he rubs his tail and...
Mrozinski: He’ll look rough and stuff like that. Well today you give ‘em vitamins and worm ‘em and I got a pair of colts at home. I worm them about every thirty days. I wanna make sure the feed is doing some good. I don’t...I don’t wanna be feedin’ the worms.
Schultz: What would your father pay for a horse comparable to the kind you’re buying today in those days?
Lehman: Oh shoot.
Mrozinski: For the best team of horses he told me I think he said was five hundred dollars. That was top team.
Lehman: And that was a beautiful team of horses.
Mrozinski: That was the best.
Lehman: That was the best team.
Mrozinski: Today. Five thousand for a pair of geldings. Uh...and I uh...went to a sale the other day and they sold a pair of mares up there for I think they said around twelve thousand.
Lehman: That’s for breeding horses.
Mrozinski: Right. That’s for breeding.
Lehman: I say look at the money that person’s putting in that horse just to raise colts. But after he has them two years he’s gonna get his money back.
Mrozinski: Right.
Lehman: But at the time...[indecipherable]...
Schultz: Then the interest in today is more nostalgic. There’s nobody actually using them for a living or...
Mrozinski: Oh yes. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. There’s a lot of people using ‘em yet for a living. You take your Amish down around Middlebury, LaGrange, Shipshewana, Topeka. Those people they have got no tractors. It’s strictly horses.
Lehman: See they believe...Amish believes in that. That only thing.
Mrozinski: It is their belief they will not use anything on wheels and motor. They can take a motor and use it for a power take off on a corn picker or something like that but it’s pulled by horses.
Lehman: You got...[indecipherable]...that way.
Mrozinski: Yeah so you have got people that don’t believe in tractors and stuff like that. No electricity.
Schultz: Uhm...the cars are very important to people today. Uhm...can you describe what the horse meant to people in your father’s time?
Mrozinski: About like an automobile today. About like an automobile today.
Lehman: This is right. That’s right.
Mrozinski: I don’t know back then what they gave for a buggy. Do you know?
Lehman: Oh God I don’t know.
Mrozinski: I mean you could buy a buggy then for around fifty to a hundred dollars.
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...advertised for that...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: Yeah. It’s something like that.
Mrozinski: And today it’s a thousand dollars.
Lehman: Course uh too a lot of times at that time they had two seater buggies. And if somebody wanted to be a little bit fancy they even had a top on it. ...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: You could take the whole family then.
Lehman: The whole family went to church or went to town...
Mrozinski: That’s the way they still do it down there in LaGrange and Middlebury and Topeka and Shipshewana. And they have church and stuff and would take the whole family they used the two seated buggy but like if you was just going to town where you got a one seater buggy...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: When I was born the folks took me in a bobsled which was from Rolling Prairie to Saugany Lake which is about what...six miles?
Mrozinski: I would imagine.
Lehman: ...[indecipherable]...they loaded me in that bobsled and they hauled me up there and got cleaned up...[indecipherable]... Course them days there was no car. They had to.
Schultz: What year was that?
Lehman: 1907.
Schultz: Uh...there were a few cars around...
Lehman: 1906 now...I’m...I will be seventy-two so it was 1906.
Schultz: There was a few cars around. When did the...the car...and start to displace the horse in...in this area?
Lehman: Well...my dad always told...we lived on twenty just this side of Rolling Prairie and uh...he seen a car go through there. A 1907. ...[indecipherable]... And then from there on it seemed like it ‘cumulated a little more and little more.
Mrozinski: But they still wasn’t in uh really cars wasn’t uh movin’ on the road until what maybe thirties? Twenties?
Lehman: Twenties.
Mrozinski: In the twenties.
Lehman: That’s right Bob. Because uh...when I was ten years old I drove a team of horses down twenty. And there was a car come down there and oh wow man I stopped. And I was hauling stone. I was following him. I was just a little kid see. And uh...the bag was crippled up you couldn’t do much. And here come a car. And he’s gonna make me get off the road so he could get by. Oh man I started to get up and took that board over this wagon...[indecipherable]...seat and he started coming with it. And I said you need to back that up or get the hell out of the way or we will run over it. You know them days. See because the guy had no business on there. He was just a wallering through. But he coulda pulled off and let us by if he’d a wanted to. Oh so he backed up oh quite a ways and he finally got off the road. Cause them days we had ruts you know we just followed back and forth in there all the time....[indecipherable]...rolled us back.
Schultz: I see. Describe that a little bit more. You mean the roads weren’t flat the way we think of roads today? They had big...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: You bet.
Schultz: The wagon roads...[indecipherable]...different...[indecipherable]... Would you be in trouble? ...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Your wagons back then was all the same width...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: Oh yes. Oh yes. All your width.
Mrozinski: I even got wagons at home that it’s a gravel wagon is when you haul on the roads it had like a false bottom. And it just dumped the gravel in the tracks where the car went. It had a board in the middle
[Side one of tape ends]
[Side two of tape begins]
Schultz: We were discussing uh what the roads...[indecipherable]...were like in the 1920s...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Schultz: Uhm what were you saying about the roads Bob?
Mrozinski: Well like the wagons all there was was ruts. I’ve got a wagon yet today it’s got a false bottom in it when you trip a lever that the gravel when you were hauling and you tripped it it fell in the wheel marks. If you didn’t waste too much gravel and put it in the middle where the wheels didn’t run. And that...that must...must’ve been built back maybe in the twenties. I don’t know.
Lehman: Yeah. Yeah. Well then before that now Bob they had...
Mrozinski: ...[indecipherable]...boards.
Lehman: ...to haul gravel. They had this like say two by four in the...in the bottom.
Mrozinski: And they call ‘em dump boards.
Lehman: Yeah. And there would be two sides and all you had to do was pull this side up and if you couldn’t get one side up you just get each one of ‘em till you get down the road a few and put it all back together and go back and get another load. You know they would...[indecipherable]... Uh...my day...now it coulda been that...[indecipherable]...they used to have to shovel it off just like it been shoveled on. I don’t think that lasted too long because they found out that they could use them false bottoms.
Mrozinski: I’ve got one of those yet. And I don’t know how old it is.
Lehman. Yeah. Oh gosh.
Mrozinski: I couldn’t tell ya. But uh...they used ‘em...uh...I didn’t use it much. It was just more or less a man keeping it. We kept it in the barn and today well I imagine it’s worth quite a bit of money. I don’t know. But I wouldn’t sell it.
Schultz: Uhm...you mentioned your...farrier or...[indecipherable]...the man that puts the shoes on horses now. Is...was it typical for most men to do that themselves who had horses or did they take it to a...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: You had your blacksmith around.
Lehman: Your blacksmith around.
Mrozinski: There was very few people that done it.
Lehman: I don’t think there’s in this area. I don’t think there’s three people.
Mrozinski: Now for big horses I’m about the only one.
Lehman: Only one for big horses.
Schultz: Uhm...two questions then. Why didn’t the average farmer do it himself? He did many other things himself...[indecipherable]...why are there so few of these guys?
Lehman: It took too much. You had to have a forge to make that shoe. See them...nowadays they make shoes. But years ago this blacksmith when you take that horse into his place he hooked up a foot and he got the size and he made that shoe. Well now he...all these tools...
Mrozinski: It’s just like that picture. You can see how that foot isn’t completely round. I don’t know if you can tell on it.
Lehman: You...[indecipherable]...the foot would be...[indecipherable]...different.
Mrozinski: Right. There isn’t too horses alike.
Lehman: No. Any...anyway you gotta tip this horses foot up to make the front higher than you do the back and maybe on the other one you gotta go this way. It all depends how that horse walks you know. You got...you gotta catch up with that too.
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Right. There was blacksmiths in New Carlisle. One in Rolling Prairie. Uh...you drove your horses to the blacksmith shop.
Lehman: He didn’t go...
Mrozinski: Or some of ‘em did come out later on. I remember when I used to go thrashing they would come out.
Lehman: In your days yes. I remember my days.
Mrozinski: You took ‘em to town.
Lehman: You bet. You had to take ‘em to town.
Mrozinski: Today they bring a lot of ‘em to my house. I don’t go too much.
Lehman: All his workhorses.
Mrozinski: Yeah all my workhorses that people bring in. I don’t go to their farm because uh...
Lehman: Which is why he had to build a pen because today they don’t do too much of that. And boy you can’t pick his foot up. Not when he weighs a ton. You gotta go pick that horses foot up.
Mrozinski: When that horse was working twenty-thirty years ago uh every day in the field it was different.
Lehman: Well he’d stand there. He didn’t care.
Mrozinski: He would stand. He was tired. Today when you don’t use your horses as much and when you do use ‘em well it wears the feet down pretty fast so you put shoes on ‘em. But uh...uh...today I just got the stock and I just put each one in the stock and tie their feet up you can see by the ropes there and everything. Then it’s uh...it’s no problem.
Lehman: You even got saddle horses you have to do that with.
Mrozinski: Oh yeah. There’s a few saddle horses yet today that you have to put in there. But then there’s a lot of ‘em that they’ll just stand as good right outside as anything.
Schultz: Were all horses shod even in those days?
Mrozinski: Oh no. No.
Lehman: No.
Mrozinski: A lot of people didn’t go on the road much. Maybe they kept one team shod. Their main team that they used on the road. The rest of the horses they used in the field.
Lehman: ...[indecipherable]...and out in the field you didn’t have to have shoes.
Mrozinski: You didn’t need shoes.
Lehman: And in the wintertime you had to have shoes on that team that you worked everyday because you know just like now they’re out here on ice and that horse could not walk on that.
Mrozinski: They’d say to put ice shoes on. ...[indecipherable]...ice sharp shod shoes.
Lehman: Sharp points on their shoes and they’d stick.
Schultz: Uh now you mentioned what you would do today if uh your horse had worms. Uh...what would you do in the old days if your horse got sick or had worms...
Lehman: They had a system.
Mrozinski: Had some old methods.
Lehman: Through the rectum. You know a long hose and they would pour this...they mixed up something...salt and water mostly. Well now the mixed salt inside of this horse and you wanna get out of the way because he’s gonna pass it right out...it was the same way as giving a person an enema. It’s uh...it was practically the same way. Cause I used to help my dad and I used to get so mad when he’d always do that. But today you don’t do that. Well in fact the veterinarian has to do it why he’d probably...
Mrozinski: Today well they give you capsules and pills and you can just buy it in the feed store and there’s nothing to it. You just take a syringe and uh it’ll tell how many pounds horse to how much to give him and you just get it in on his tongue and it’s nothing to it.
Schultz: Uhm...a lot of people kinda look back on them days of horses as a...as a very wonderful period. I wouldn’t uh...I was going to get your opinions on it. Was...was it a lot harder to be farmer then? Uh...was it a lot more pleasant? Was there a lot...more headaches when you had horses than tractors? Uhm...how do you feel about the old days vs. today and how you’d be farming today?
Lehman: It used to be a time when they couldn’t hardly raise enough feed to feed the animals when they did it all with horse work.
Mrozinski: But you didn’t have the fertilizer. You didn’t have your weed killer and everything back then either see.
Lehman: No...no but uh...I mean nowadays you could...with just one tractor...
Mrozinski: You farm so many more acres.
Lehman: So many more acres.
Mrozinski: So much quicker.
Lehman: Faster than...and you use so many chemicals today. Where them days they didn’t know what the hell chemicals looked like.
Mrozinski: Chemical was not...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: Only thing...only fertilizer they used was what the stall made and...
Mrozinski: The manure. That was about it. It uh...there’s just a lot of difference in farming today. When they got to farm thousands of acres today and back then you had a hundred and fifty acres. A hundred and sixty you thought you was a big farmer.
Lehman: You was a big farmer man. ...[indecipherable]..was a forty acre farms a lot of ‘em.
Mrozinski: Forty-sixty-eighty you know. But then the price of things were a lot cheaper too. You could get by cheaper than you could today.
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...you said forty acres. How can you make a living on forty acres?
Mrozinski: Well you had a few chickens you know.
Lehman: ...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: You had your chickens. You had a couple pigs. You had a milk cow. You planted a garden. Back then the women they canned and canned stuff and everything. You had so little you know so you could get by.
Lehman: Probably all you ever bought was uh...uh...
Mrozinski: Very little stuff.
Lehman: Coffee and sugar.
Mrozinski: And the flour.
Lehman: Well you had your wheat in them days...
Mrozinski: You could get your flour made....[indecipherable]...wheat...
Lehman: All you had to go was go to the mill and you’d make it and bring it home and they put it in barrels and have it for the whole winter.
Schultz: I...I’ve seen some pictures of uhm horses and halter units where you put a horse in a treadmill and uh...were those used in LaPorte County?
Mrozinski: Right. I don’t remember. Ed might. I didn’t.
Lehman: I think...I can’t recollect right now if they did.
Mrozinski: I imagine them was used before your day even.
Lehman: Yeah. I’ve seen ‘em on beef grinders. You know a grinder which you ground beef for uh...for animals.
Schultz: Like your...[indecipherable]...and for...[indecipherable]...?
Mrozinski: Right. Little ones. Hmm-hmm.
Lehman: Yeah.
Mrozinski: There’s a few of those treadmills around today. ...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: Yeah.
Schultz: How do you know if those were actually used in uh...our very...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: I would imagine they was used back...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: Yes. Oh yes. Course they didn’t feed too much ground beef. They hadn’t...[indecipherable]... The mother or the kids would go out with a little hatchet and like your corn...you just sit there and you chop it all up and that’s the way you would feed it see. Course then they found out that they...you can grind it. And it’s...[indecipherable]...now. So them days they just kept it up in shape. If you went out and got a gallon of milk from a cow that was wonderful at that time. Today it’s five gallons. Because look what they’re puttin’ into that cow. Isn’t it Bob?
Mrozinski: Right.
Lehman: Oh God I used to...your brother he...I bet he’s got a lot of cows over there he gets pretty near five gallons. In one milking. Then you had your chickens.
Mrozinski: You raised everything that you needed.
Lehman: Oh yes. They had big gardens them days boy. More than once I hoed...hoed a...[indecipherable]...when I was a kid.
Schultz: What...[indecipherable]...in the forty years of farming...[indecipherable]...farming today? Were you...[indecipherable]...compared to or is it something you...would you rather go back to the forty acre...[indecipherable]...or would you rather be a...[indecipherable]...?
Lehman: You had more money them days in our pocket than we have today. Our trouble is your machinery and everything is so high. Just like right now. Corn if you can get a dollar eighty cents a bushel for that corn today. And that man has probably put in oh God several thousand dollars of fertilizer, weed killer, corn picker, seed corn. Them days you picked your own seed corn. Right outta the field. Today you buy fifty-sixty dollar bushel corn.
Mrozinski: You gotta do a lot of it today in order to...to make anything.
Lehman: Oh you...you have to go to work.
Mrozinski: You couldn’t afford to farm forty acres. You’d starve to death today.
Lehman: Your brother farms close to two thousand acres.
Mrozinski: Right.
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: That’s right. If you’d go out there and see all the equipment that poor boy buys. He’s in debt up to here we know.
Mrozinski: It...it takes a lot of machinery to farm that much. I wouldn’t want no part of it.
Lehman: I don’t see how that kid makes it.
Mrozinski: I don’t know.
Lehman: ...[indecipherable]...by God he looks worn.
Schultz: It must be a lot of stress keeping all of the equipment and all the things and everything together.
Mrozinski: Right.
Lehman: There’s times that he’s...I know he’s distracted in his head...you know a lot of times.
Mrozinski: But he’s gonna make it or not. He’s working at it.
Lehman: He’s uh...he...he also...if he didn’t have his milk cows...his dairy...he...he would lose everything he’s got. Milk is good price. I used to help him milk what...close to fifty head.
Mrozinski: I imagine fifty head of cattle.
Lehman: Well now every two weeks he gets a two thousand dollar check. Now but he’s put a lot of grain and hay into them horses...them cows too.
Mrozinski: A lot of expense. It isn’t all profit.
Lehman: But there...the only place he’s making any money. And also in order to keep a little something to eat on the table he drives school bus. To keep a little extra money.
Schultz: You were just scratching the surface of what you know about horses. Uhm...and I’ve run out of important questions to ask at this point. Uhm...uh I think the difference between my words and perhaps yours is that very few people...my parents had to work or had...ever had the opportunity to work as hard as you have had to work in your lives. ...[indecipherable]...that it’s going to be an unusual experience for...this kind of thing to have occurred then. Could you describe a typical day on a farm especially a farm with horses? What would you...what would it be like? What time would you get up? What would you do? What was...your chores? Uhm...say it was in the springtime.
Mrozinski: Go ahead Ed and tell him.
Lehman: Well...in the spring.
Mrozinski: And you get up and milk your cows and everything.
Lehman: Get out and milk.
Schultz: What time would you do that?
Lehman: Four o’clock in the morning.
Schultz: Is that regularly? Four o’clock in the morning?
Mrozinski: Right.
Lehman: In the spring. Now in the wintertime it is not that bad because you doesn’t have to...[indecipherable]... But he’ll get up at four o’clock. ...[indecipherable]...he milks. Maybe he’s got to go to the pasture field to get these cows up. Brings ‘em in and milks ‘em. He feeds his horses. Then he’ll go in and have breakfast. Practically did a half a days work. I did that from time to time again.
Schultz: What time was breakfast served?
Lehman: Six-six thirty. At seven o’clock you’re out in that field.
Schultz: Uh...what’d you have for breakfast?
Lehman: Oh gosh uh them days...it was pork, pancakes, or eggs, or uh...course them days you didn’t know what toast was. So it isn’t like what you had today. Uhm...oh oatmeal, cornmeal. They had....[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: You had a pretty good meal because you worked hard.
Lehman: Oh yes...your breakfast was practically the same as you...cause you...[indecipherable]...cause you knew he was out and workin’. Then I can remember staying with my grandmother. That I’d be out in the field at seven o’clock. I was just twelve years old. But nine thirty or ten o’clock you could see Grandma coming with a little basket. You had to have a sandwich with cold coffee. While you waited for dinner but you put your horses up, watered ‘em, fed ‘em up. One hour and you would...[indecipherable]...back out in the field and work again. Then you...
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...a plow like that?
Lehman: Yes. Then you would go back in at night. Uhm...get ‘em all...I used to bathe my horses and leave ‘em white and get the sweat off of ‘em you know cause they’d be just sweaty as could be. I’d bathe ‘em or take a brush and brush ‘em off real good and then tomorrow morning do the same thing. But you’d get in ‘em...in the evening...you’d try to get in by five o’clock. Wasn’t it? Yeah about five. Now you...by the time you put that team in the barn and take the harness off of ‘em and get ‘em ready. Bed ‘em down. Go out in the field and get your cows. Bring ‘em in and milk ‘em. Stand there and cool with a little cooled stirrer with a hand stirrer.
Schultz: Cool what? The milk?
Lehman: Hmm?
Schultz: You cooled the milk?
Lehman: You cooled the milk down. Well you come in the house about six thirty-seven o’clock. For supper.
Mrozinski: Your day was pretty well complete.
Lehman: Then your day was completed. Then we’d sit around there and sit around and mom would...[indecipherable]...wherever I was at. We’d get a great big dish pan and pop it full of popcorn. We’d sit around and...[indecipherable]... We’d take popcorn and get ready for bed. That’d be our days work. But tomorrow morning. Four o’clock. Dad’d look at the stairway door and say time to get up.
Schultz: Well what time would you go to bed?
Lehman: Well...never after ten o’clock. It was before ten. It all depends just how tired and what you were doing. Uh...I went to bed a lot of times eight o’clock.
Schultz: Was this six days of the week or five days of the week?
Lehman: Six days of the week.
Mrozinski: We mostly had Sunday off. That was your day of rest.
Lehman: Everybody went to Church in them days.
Mrozinski: Back them days you went to Church on Sunday...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: Now you had your chores to do now morning and night but...
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...chickens?
Mrozinski: There’re chickens and pigs and cows and milkin’ and take care of your horses. Then you was done till...until you...[indecipherable]...back and do your chores again.
Schultz: Now is...you...[indecipherable]...a twelve year old boy. That was during the summertime. Before...what would it have been in school year? What would...
Mrozinski: You’d get up and milk cows in the morning.
Lehman: This...this is why I never got...went to the sixth grade. I had to stay home and help dad maybe today and tomorrow. Maybe I made one day or two days out of a week at school. Them days all you had to do was the dad would go in and talk to the teacher and say well I’ve got to have him. You know well in them days you know it was different. Well golly it would come time for me to graduate and nobody’d have no...[indecipherable]...you know to get in on the school. Well I got so disgusted with...and when I got sixteen years old I was gone. I was only in the sixth grade.
Schultz: Then what did you do? Did you go into farming when you were sixteen?
Lehman: Well I farmed uh...
Mrozinski: Well you worked for different people didn’t you?
Lehman: Yes. Yes I worked for different people. I went out as a hired man see. Then. Cause after dad got crippled up I’d say I was about ten-eleven yeah ten years old dad sold out everything. He couldn’t work and he had to hire a man. It didn’t pay to hire that much help to do this work. So then I went and stayed with my grandmother. Well of course all winter like I say all was calm and there was days I missed. We had to get wood.
Schultz: What things did you enjoy most about being a farmer? And what things did you dislike most?
Lehman: I loved to watch things grow. You know uh seed. And another thing...is preparing your ground. How nice. You can get a piece of ground looks just like it’s tilled. Then at the end there’s a lot of lumps and...
Mrozinski: There was a lot of variation in different farms now.
Lehman: With different farmers.
Mrozinski: How they would set their ground and everything like that. The more work you put to it the little better it looked and the better crop you got. And maybe your next door neighbor well he didn’t do as good a job and he didn’t get as good a crop. So it was just kinda...
Lehman: There was a stone out in the field we had to go out there and get it. It didn’t help the field.
Schultz: What do you remember as being the most pleasant job or activity? Was it sitting around eating popcorn or was it...what was it?
Mrozinski: Oh I don’t know it was uh...getting back when you was a kid it was just kinda an everyday affair. Uh...I didn’t care get up milkin’ them cows in the morning.
Lehman: No he didn’t.
Mrozinski: I didn’t go much for that. I took care of the horses mostly and my brother he milked. My dad milked. I would always have the team ready and uh...and stuff. Whatever we was gonna do that day but uh...oh I don’t know I always enjoyed horses. That’s why I still got ‘em yet today.
Schultz: Why do you enjoy ‘em?
Mrozinski: I don’t know. Just brought up with ‘em and uh...always liked to have a nice looking team and uh...I kept my brother...he don’t care nothing about ‘em. Never did.
Schultz: Did they become like friends uh...[indecipherable]...are they kept or are they...
Mrozinski: Well you know what each horse is when you’ve had him...
Lehman: You knew that horse like you do any pets. You really do.
Mrozinski: I don’t keep ‘em too long today. Somebody always comes along and I had my horses lookin’ nice and somebody always wants to buy ‘em. Well they uh...I’m not married to the horse so I just sell ‘em. But then I’ll drive thousands of miles lookin’ for another pair. These pictures we’ve been goin’ through uh...I don’t know how many different horses I’ve had here but uh...uh...I’ve had many horses. So I kinda enjoy getting a team and get ‘em lookin’ nice and if somebody else likes ‘em well...
Lehman: Needs ‘em worse than he does.
Mrozinski: Needs ‘em worse than I do well uh they can own ‘em. Well like me uh...I take the Drafthorse Journal. And that goes all over the country. And these different sales and uh...uh...I went to a sale here a couple weeks ago and sold a pair of horses I had and now I’m lookin’ for another team and I don’t know it just kinda goes on.
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Oh mostly keep a team and now I’ve got a pair of colts coming out. Then I’ll sell the colts or sell my oldest team and uh...it’s all according to what uh...
Lehman: Only a couple years ago you had four or five of ‘em around.
Mrozinski: Yeah I had a bunch of ‘em and uh...
Lehman: But you didn’t...[indecipherable]...gettin’ rid of ‘em.
Schultz: You’d have all the...[indecipherable]...you’d have wagons and sled and...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: I’ve got the whole works. But uh...it’s just whatever you like I guess. There isn’t that many around today. When I’d uh...
Lehman: Horses are very scarce.
Mrozinski: They’re very scarce in this part of the country.
Schultz: How many draft horses are there in Northern Indiana or LaPorte County.
Mrozinski: Oh gosh I’d have to get the book the Drafthorse Journal and...and uh...someday I’ll...
Lehman: Now just in LaPorte County now Bob.
Mrozinski: Oh LaPorte County? Not too many.
Lehman: Uh I’d say fifty.
Mrozinski: I would say about fifty head of horses. In LaPorte County. Now...now we’re speaking drafthorses.
Schultz: Uh-huh. Now how would you...[indecipherable]...when you were a young boy? How many horses were there then? In town?
Mrozinski: Oh God.
Lehman: There was as many horses. Work horses...and that includes riding horses now.
Mrozinski: And I couldn’t tell ya how many really saddle horses there is cause every...
Lehman: Every Tom and Dick and Harry and their draft clubs and...
Mrozinski: Saddle horses.
Lehman: So every farm family would have at least two. At least.
Mrozinski: Oh yes definitely. Definitely.
Lehman: Two.
Mrozinski: Two...two, three or four. Back then.
Lehman: Now...[indecipherable]...has got what fifty horses. A hundred horses....[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Yeah battle horses you know. That’s when we get talking draft horses I would say practically every family had from two or most of ‘em had four head of horses. Maybe they had a driving horse that they went to town with. A white horse.
Lehman: They worked.
Schultz: Were...were...were these uh draft horses uh...imported or were they mostly bred in the United States?
Mrozinski: Well your Belgian horses were brought from Belgium.
Lehman: The big...[indecipherable]...a few mares and a stallion and they raised ‘em and...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: And got started.
Schultz: Yeah. Most of the horses that farmers had here were raised locally...very few imported horses I...[indecipherable]...at least in your...
Mrozinski: Oh when I was uh old enough to work you know there was already horses here. They was imported years back.
Lehman: Years ago.
Mrozinski: And then they got started raising ‘em raising ‘em more and more and...and uh...first thing you know they got it...you know where there was a lot of horses.
Schultz: The draft horse was uh brought here later than the riding horse. The riding horse was the first horse...[indecipherable]... When were draft horses uh brought here do you have any idea?
Mrozinski: There was your uh...your smaller western horses and first on the start wasn’t it Ed?
Lehman: Yeah. Yeah.
Mrozinski: And then your draft horses I don’t know. Maybe your Belgians maybe imported ‘em back in the twenties. I don’t know. There were horses brought in I know in the twenties. There would be...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: In 1906 my dad had horses. Well your dad did too.
Mrozinski: Right.
Lehman: Right on the farms.
Mrozinski: They wasn’t as good a blooded horses as you got today.
Lehman: Oh no because if you just raised...
Mrozinski: If you just raised whatever you had and you worked it today well you go back to blood lines in this horse and that horse and more or less that’s what your money is trading today to get your...your good blood lines. You got people that look for a certain blood line and...and that’s it.
Lehman: You never used to think of a registered horse.
Mrozinski: No.
Lehman: Today it’s fifty percent registered horses.
Mrozinski: Right.
Lehman: Better than that.
Schultz: Your draft horses were much more...[indecipherable]...an animal than your...your...your western horse for example. Uh...there’s fewer of them...[indecipherable]...you better have two good draft horses than four western horses...
Mrozinski: I don’t know. Those western horses were an awful tough horses. They was...
Lehman: Yes but Bob, look at it this way. Your western horses pulled loads the size of ‘em. Today your draft horses pull loads like your semis and all of this haul load.
Mrozinski: You could move practically anything with a heavy draft horse today.
Lehman: See western horses if you put a...a...oh gosh if you hauled a ton you was hauling a heck of a load you know at that time.
Mrozinski: It was a lighter load.
Lehman: Today it’s five and six and eight tons a wagon hauls when you pull. And uh this is the difference in your western horses. That’s why they only farmed so it’s more of a loss because these poor western horses they did what they could do with ‘em and that was it. Where today...
Mrozinski: They wasn’t much bigger than a big saddle...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: No there wasn’t. I seen a lot of brands on horses that come in here.
Mrozinski: Comes from out of the...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: That’s the same thing as with today...there’s a guy lives over here he’s got uh race horses. Hell he farms with ‘em. You know you can get ‘em to go but uh naturally you can’t do what this big horse can do but he’s...
Mrozinski: He more or less toughens ‘em up for the track.
Lehman: Yeah.
Schultz: Wouldn’t ...[indecipherable]...on a horse...[indecipherable]...? I...I...I couldn’t...[indecipherable]...they hung way down. I never seen a whole lot uh...you either get the...[indecipherable]...on their shoulders or their...their...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: Legs go in first. You better get your...your leg muscles. They gotta have leg muscles. It’s just like yourself. The more you walk the better your legs are. You wanna keep your legs muscled up and that goes for the hips and the shoulders and...and there where you get all your power.
Lehman: See a horse will get down and you get...[indecipherable]...double up and he’ll stick his feet in to pull.
Mrozinski: If he’s...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: I wish you could see a horse pull sometime. God you take what was it...eighty-five a hundred...
Mrozinski: One set of horses would pull on a...[indecipherable]...boat.
Lehman: It’s right on a boat it gets dragnet.
Mrozinski: Well see these horses gotta be tough as nails.
Lehman: They’ve got no...
Mrozinski: It takes always with a draft too to get ‘em hardened up today. Because you don’t use ‘em in the field like you did years back.
Schultz: The draft horses work maybe at least eight hours in the day?
Mrozinski: Right.
Lehman: Yes. About ten hours is the average for a team of horses on uh...on the farm. Most of ‘em worked nine. It all depends on what all you want to get done.
Mrozinski: Or you had to get done. It’s all according to what your weather was and everything like that.
Lehman: Yeah.
Mrozinski: If it looked like rain you’d put in a couple extra hours and tomorrow you was off maybe.
Schultz: What would you and the horses do in the wintertime? I’ve always wondered that. What do farm people do in the wintertime?
Mrozinski: Oh they go out and cut wood and haul wood in with the horses and...
Lehman: Haul manure.
Mrozinski: Haul manure out with ‘em. There was always something to be done.
Lehman: Hauling ice. To these ice places. And they’d take bobsled and drive on out on a lake. Loaded up and take it in. And they’d haul coal some. But it’s mostly wood them days you know. And they went out and cut wood. And maybe you had a...a stack of hay out there in the field that you didn’t have room. Why if you get that team and get you a load and take it up to the barns and have it for feed.
Mrozinski: There was always work to be done.
Lehman: Well when I run for Sheriff you know every day...every day I’d hitch ‘em up and a little something I did with ‘em all the time.
Schultz: So you hitched ‘em up uh everyday.
Mrozinski: Yeah it’s just like your tractor today.
Lehman: Yeah the same thing.
Mrozinski: Same thing.
Schultz: Would you ever use ‘em for recreation like hook ‘em up to a sleigh ride or hay ride or things like that.
Mrozinski: Well they did on Sunday didn’t they? Now and then?
Lehman: Oh yes. Yes. Yep. ...[indecipherable name]...and I when I worked a...[indecipherable]...course now that’s fifty years ago uh...we had dances out there at the Church. I went to the Northern Indiana Track with a...[indecipherable]...team and bobsleds and picked up a bunch come out on this...like the South Shore runs now. It was a wonderful two lane...[indecipherable]...Northern Indiana. He’d go to South Shore and I’d go to Northern Indiana and we’d pick up a load and go to the dance. We also aimed to on the way back home after going back we’d start out early. I’ll pull up on the bank and tip over the whole works. And just for...
Schultz: Why would you do that?
Lehman: Just to have some fun. Everybody tipping in the snow. And they got the biggest kick out of it.
Mrozinski: But the horses were used then too.
Lehman: All you had to do was say Ho and the horse stopped. Just some of ‘em went over and that was it. But everybody got out and put it back together and they’d climb in.
Schultz: Once the wagon was unloaded and you had a pretty good road home what miles per hour are you talkin’ about?
Mrozinski: Three miles an hour. Three to four.
Lehman: Yeah it all depends just how lively your team walked.
Schultz: But usually...[indecipherable]...walked about three miles an hour...[indecipherable]...
Mrozinski: The speed of a horse.
Lehman: A empty wagon...empty you might walk just a little bit faster. But now if you was hauling a load of hay or some wood in uh...
Mrozinski: A...[indecipherable]...load it was holding them...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: Because you got your hills. Your little inclines and stuff like...
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...enough now.
Mrozinski: It’s a...
Lehman: Depends on the team of horses.
Schultz: Uh...[indecipherable]...cities were only so far apart...[indecipherable]...depend on how far and you’d all have your farms so far away from the cities so that you could make it in and back before sundown. Is that...[indecipherable]...
Lehman: Oh not always. Some of ‘em went one day and come back the next.
Mrozinski: Well you had your uh livery stables where you could stay in town. Put your horse in. If it was too far away you’d stay overnight and come back the next day.
Lehman: You slept in the barn. You know you got folks around here you could get clear up in the hay and go to sleep. And uh...I remember dad come up here to Michigan City one time to...[indecipherable]...and it come up a storm and he stayed all night. And mom worried. Them days the women didn’t worry about...[indecipherable]...because they knew he was out doing something and maybe the next day here he come.
Schultz: ...[indecipherable]...experience what you guys have. If there were one or two things that you’d like to have them experience that you’ve experienced with horses what do you think it might be?
[Side two of tape ends]