Transcript of Oral History Tape #T-3-57 Transcribed by Mary Ann Vartia 08/27/03.

Interviewer: Interview with Harriet Crumpacker, November 8, 1977.

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, You wanted to talk about, clubs way back. Of course, there was no country club. And especially in Michigan City, there were probably, I know in Scotland, there were—I mean locally. And Hermitage was really the club. It was a very exclusive club. I mean the membership were, well, all the prominent people of town, and it—the building is still standing. Out in Sheridan Beach. And I’m not sure, but I think it was made into some sort of a health club. It’s, well, you know where that nursing home is? Well, it’s this side of that. It’s a big, oh, a two-story building. And I’m sure it’s still standing. And the only way you could get to it in the old days was back through the sand hills. There was no beach hills, and you had to come in through the woods. There was a—just like a trail to get to it, but there was a great many lovely social things. And outside of that the Sitters and Stayers Club, and there was a club called the Dirty Dozen. And that was a group of younger men than those that were in the Sitters and Stayers. And there were 12 to start it, and that’s where it got its name. And they gave some beautiful parties and things. And they were all active in anything to do with the community. And let’s see if there’s any other club?

Interviewer: Were these clubs, like the Hermitage, was it only for men to join? Or could…

Mrs. Crumpacker: Nope. Well, yes. Nolen joined, but his family had the use of the club. But it was really started as a man’s club.

Interviewer: Do you know the years it ran? How long it was open as a club?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, it was started when I was a tiny little girl. It might have been before, though, I think it was when I was little. And then when I was in high school, that was the sort of the end of the Hermitage Club. They, ah, the club, most of the members had passed away and then different organizations would use it for picnics and things, and then a group of men bought it. And, I’m not positive of this, but I think it was a Jewish club for a long time. I think it was called the Standard Club, named after that very fashionable Standard Club in Chicago, and it was a Jewish club. But what sort of entertainment they did I wouldn’t know.

Interviewer: When it was the Hermitage, you said they would have dances there?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, yes. All sorts of parties. And I know they always had lovely children’s parties during the summer, different ones, families would have them. And then they’d load the picnics. Different organizations would have—I think they—I’m not sure, but I think they rented it to ah… Well, I know the Rotary Club had a big picnic there, but I think that was after the Hermitage Club had passed into other hands. And, of course, the Elks Club is always as it is now, but ah…

Interviewer: Do you remember where they had their….

Mrs. Crumpacker: The Elks building?

Interviewer: Yeah.

Mrs. Crumpacker: It seems to me their first building, first clubhouse—now I hate to say this for certain, but it seemed to me it was in Mozart Hall. And that is down on Michigan Street, East Michigan. And I’m not sure as to that. Then, of course, they built that building on Franklin Street between Fifth and Sixth, which is now the Eagles. And I don’t know why they gave that up. I think it was financial reasons. And then they had the club on Seventh Street in what used to be called the Neimer Annex Building. That building at Seventh and Franklin, where—I think Vale’s Hobby Shop is in it now, but Walgreen’s were there for years, is called the Neimer block, Neimer. And then they built a building back of it, and that was called the Neimer Annex. And there is a café in one part and a buffet in another. And then there was a beautiful hall upstairs that they rented out for parties and dances and things. And most all the high school dances were held there.

Interviewer: What about the things like the Armory? Were the dances held there?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, the Armory, of course, that was a built as a theater, but… And so they could—it was—they could take the floor with the seats out and make it a place for dances and things and, but there was a stage and, as I think I told you in another interview. stock companies would come for a week and their prices were Ten, Twenty, and Thirty Cents. Thirty Cents were the best seats and Ten Cents was in the gallery, and they had all old time shows like Uncle Tom’s Cabin, and Ten Knights in a Barroom, and East Lynn, and all those old, old shows. And then these stock companies would come and put out a different play every night, but it had that removable floor so that they could have different entertainments. And the Sitters and Stayers always had a minstrel show and to raise money for charity and things. And then I think I told you about this, an advertising party, that was held there. They’d take the floor out, and the seats were put around the side and they would march around to show their costumes and things. But the Armory was used for a great many things until the time it fell apart. And that, where the Armory was is where the original Jaymar Ruby factory is down there on—well, we used to call it Second Street or… Well, I guess—no it’s always Michigan Street. I was thinking it was Second, but it isn’t, it’s Michigan, and that’s where it was. Between, well, you know where the Jaymar Ruby was, why it’s right that very spot.

Interviewer: From what I’ve read in the histories, it sounded like Michigan City just had a number of cultural opportunities, you know, plays and everything.

Mrs. Crumpacker: Yes, every summer they’d have what they called the Chautauqua. And they would come. It was always in a tent and usually it was down in the park, and one year it was up, oh, way up south Franklin. And they had some very good, well, different—it was like, you think of a forum, different people came. They had some very marvelous singers and it was—you bought a season ticket and that entitles you to go to all the plays. And it was always in a tent. And it came every summer, and it traveled all over the countryside. It was a very famous thing, the Chautauqua. We had many things, all the entertainment was very high class. And it was supported by people that appreciated good entertainment. Well, and then another place where there was a great many things held was at Mozart Hall. And dances and weddings, and that was before Neimer Hall was built. And then there was also, across the street on the corner of Michigan and Franklin, there was a three-story building. I think it’s still standing, and on the third floor a great many wedding receptions and things like that were held. Because there were no clubhouses, you see, like they are now.

Interviewer: I was reading about, was there an art school here in the 20s?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Yes. There, ah—well, there was music and art, and it was on Washington Street between Seventh and Eighth in the former Rose’s the George P. Rodgers. And that was made into, well, art, music; and oh, there were several art centers, but I can’t—I don’t remember. But that was one that was very well patronized and was in a wonderful location.

Interviewer: Were these types of art schools and all the kinds of things were they…

Mrs. Crumpacker: I beg your pardon?

Interviewer: Were the plays and the art school accepted by the community? I mean were they well attended?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, it was different than you think ‘ cause those—like the Dunes Art, we didn’t have anything like that. And that was a big addition when that started. It started as a summer theater and nothing else and then it enlarged, and because, you know, today what it is. And it’s been a big addition to Michigan City. And that was a, that is really the largest of any of ‘em. Most of them were smaller. And I was trying to think if there was any other, but I don’t recall any but that one on Washington. And it was managed by a woman by the name of ah, let’s see, it’s very stupid because I know it as well as anything, and her first name was Sarah, and I can’t think, but she was really the one that got it started. And I know her married name, but it wasn’t under that name. Her married name was Wood. She was married to Dan Wood, the artist. And I can’t remember where the name that the school went under, although it was called the School of Fine Arts. But she was the leading force behind the thing. Oh, I do recall, her name was Sarah Maxim, M-a-x-i-m. Sarah Maxim. No, M-a-x-, yes Sarah Maxim.

Interviewer: Was this school attended after you graduated from high school? Or the students in it, what age group were they?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Why, I guess, any age. I know there was art and music. She taught vocal, and I don’t know who—there were different people that taught the music and, but she was the, really the one that made it possible. Through the help of finances from people who were interested in things like that.

Interviewer: You attended ah—you went to school here, right? What school did you go to?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Where did I go to school?

Interviewer: Uh-huh.

Mrs. Crumpacker: Michigan City Central School at Eighth and Spring. That was the—there were—that was the first First Ward School, that was down on Fourth Street, which it was later known as Elston School, but that was known as the First Ward. Then there was the Central. That was where, at Eighth and Spring, but that was all the grades and the high school. That was an all in one, you started the first grade and went right on through it. And then they built the Isaac B. Elston High School. And then there was the Garfield School, which was known as the Fourth Ward School. And the Marsh School and the Park School. And as far as I remember, those were the only schools. And you know where the Marsh School is and where the Park School is and that’s the locations they were at that time. And, yes, those were—and before my time, there was an academy called St. Rose’s Academy, and there was one in LaPorte and it was run by nuns. And it was out on Fourth Street, way out. And, now I’ll take it back, the one in Michigan City was St. Ambrose; and then they were under the same order as St. Rose’s was in LaPorte. The same order of nuns operated both schools.

Interviewer: Which was a private school?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Yes. And it was run by this order of nuns, both LaPorte and Michigan City. And the Michigan City one was St. Ambrose.

Interviewer: Do you remember where that was located?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Yes, on Fourth Street, way out on Fourth. There used to be what they called the gas works out there, and it was—well, it was—I can’t tell you just exactly, but it was way out on Fourth Street. And I don’t know what building to tell you, but it was considered out a long way. But that’s before my time.

Interviewer: When you attended Central School, it was called Central First Ward School?

Mrs. Crumpacker: I went to Central, and it was called Central School.

Interviewer: Do you remember how many children were in a class?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, I can tell you in the entire high school when I graduated from that school, and it was the last class to graduate, and then they moved to Elston. But in the entire high school, that was freshman, sophomore, junior, senior--144 students. That was the high school when I left. And then the last year, there were quite a few students from out around surrounding places, so they used classrooms because they couldn’t get them in the assembly room.

Interviewer: How many was in your graduating class?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Umm, I can’t remember. I’d hate to say, but it seemed to me there couldn’t have been more than 20 or 30.

Interviewer: What time did you start? How long was a school day?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, we went to school at quarter past eight, and it was, depending on the grades--now lower grades get out early—but some were out at 3:30 and 4:00. And then you had, they didn’t have cafeteria or anything like that. You went home for your lunch, or you brought it. If the children that lived too far brought their lunch. But most of the children, you see, that went to Central lived in that district; and the ones that lived out Tenth Street went to Garfield. Same way down there. So you went to school to the school closest to your home.

Interviewer: What was it like to go to the school back then? I have no interim—I’d like to explain, especially to the young children, what it was like to go to a school where there’s 12 grades.

Mrs. Crumpacker: Yes. Well, that’s the way it was, you see. There were 12 grades, and they didn’t have public kindygartens for quite a few years. I went to—they had paid kindygartens; and I went to a kindygarten that was operated by a young woman by the name of Jessie Oliver, and it was in a little store building down on Franklin Street. The schools did not have kindygartens. And then there was a private school, very small, that a great many of us went to in the summer; and it was called Miss King’s School. And it was on the corner of where the Masonic Temple is now. And that was, oh, I don’t know, well, it was just somethin’ to do in the summer but we all went. We all went to Miss King’s School.

Interviewer: Umm, did you—was it eight to four o’clock, too? The hours?

Mrs. Crumpacker: The first school? No, you went either in the morning or the afternoon.

Interviewer: Do you remember what kind of subjects you would have studied?

Mrs. Crumpacker: No, I don’t. I think she would deal with things that’s from (indecipherable) —a list of things, oh, improve your reading and your writing and things like that.

Interviewer: Was her school popular?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Miss King’s?

Interviewer: Yeah.

Mrs. Crumpacker: It was very small. Yes. Of course, I would say there was probably at one time, maybe there were 15 or 20, and most of the time not that many.

Interviewer: But there was no public summer school?

Mrs. Crumpacker: No, no. That was, this really took the place of a summer school. And, as I recall, it was only in the mornings. It’s so long ago.

Interviewer: Were the private kindergartens like this (indecipherable) popular?

Mrs. Crumpacker: That was the only one in town.

Interviewer: Was it popular to send your children there? Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, yes. And, of course, she could just take so many; and then eventually, why, they got the public schools. But as long as I went to the public school, even in high school, I don’t remember any kindygarten, but there were other kindygartens private ones that different people had in town. When I was the kindygarten age, there was just one, and it was down on Franklin between Fifth and Sixth.

Interviewer: In Central, did each grade have its own room?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Each grade had its own room. And in high school, they had the assembly room where you’d all go for—in the morning, and they’d have a morning prayer and reading of the Bible.

Interviewer: The whole school would go there? The whole school would go for the assembly?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, no, the high school. The grades had theirs separately.

Interviewer: Okay. Now where’s the high school? Would that have been in the top floor?

Mrs. Crumpacker: That was on the second floor of the Central School. Not the entire, because there seems to me eighth, I think eighth grade was up on that floor, that had nothing to do with high school. And because I know seventh was on the first floor, and it just seems to me eighth. And then after a while, there was only one eighth grade in town; and that was—they took three rooms at Garfield School and everybody that went into the eighth grade, no matter where you lived, had to go to Garfield School until it… In those days, children didn’t mind walking, but now a days, why, they’d probably be very much abused to have to walk that far, but that was the way they did it. And they had—there were four eighth grade teachers, and there were four rooms. And everybody that went to the eighth grade had to go up there.

Interviewer: Now, you didn’t have to, though, did you?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Yes.

Interviewer: Oh, you took eighth grade at Garfield School?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Yes.

Interviewer: Oh, I thought this was the year before or after.

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, no, this was—when I was in eighth grade, that’s where I had to go.

Interviewer: Oh, okay, so… And Garfield had what other grades then over there, too?

Mrs. Crumpacker: They had other…

Interviewer: Up to eighth grade, too?

Mrs. Crumpacker: What?

Interviewer: Did they have like a first through seventh?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, yes; but then, as I say, I don’t know why they did that. But they did it, and there were four teachers and four rooms, and Mr. Gregor was the principal of the—just the eighth grade and stuff. It was a queer performance and why they did it, I can’t tell you, but that’s where we had to go.

Interviewer: How long did that continue eighth grade at Garfield? Do you know?

Mrs. Crumpacker: I don’t remember. Because when you finished there, why, you went to Central to high school. And see there was only one high school. Of course, St. Mary’s—now I’m not positive but it seemed to me St. Mary’s only had two years of high school. And then they came to Central. I am not definite about that. But it was only the one high school in Michigan City.

Interviewer: Was it—did a lot of kids stay through all twelve grades? Or did they…

Mrs. Crumpacker: Did many go? No, there was a great many children stopped at the eighth grade. Why I can’t tell you, but I suppose financial reasons and families had to have—children had to go to work. But I think you had to go to school even back then until you were 16. And then you could drop quick.

Interviewer: Do you remember some of the courses you would have studied? Like in…

Mrs. Crumpacker: High school?

Interviewer: High school and the early grades, too?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, exactly what you do now. We had English and history, and algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and Latin. We had beginners Latin, and we had Caesar, Cicero, and Virgil. And Indiana history. Freshman class had Roman and Greek. And then we went each class, one class was English history, and, well, all of the histories were taught—the important things. And then, of course, all the math. There were teachers for each subject. One teacher didn’t go from one to another. They had one department where they taught commercial work like typing and things like that.

Interviewer: Did they have any courses for the boys, like shop or…

Mrs. Crumpacker: No, not when I was in school. They did later. Oh, it was quite a lot later before they did that.

Interviewer: Were there a lot of school activities, plays?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, yes, the main play was the junior play. That was quite—the junior class always tried it. Then there was the football. Football team in Michigan City when I was in high school had the state championship team. And I think the picture of it is still hanging up there someplace. And basketball, and girls’ basketball.

Interviewer: Oh, was girls’ basketball popular?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Very. And track. But, ah…

Interviewer: Where was the track? Where would they run?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, way out where—south Franklin—wherever they could, and then, of course, that was before. They didn’t have Aims Field or any of those things so track was more or less run out in the country.

Interviewer: Where was the football games held?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, some of ‘em, most of them were held out near the prison. There was a vacant lot out there that a baseball club used, and they had bleachers, someplace to sit, and that so that’s where most of the foot—well, all of ‘em when I was in high school were all out there.

(Side one of tape ends.)

(Side two of tape begins.)

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, all the high schools, and then some of the town people would go. And, of course, there was great rivalry between LaPorte and Michigan City, so those games usually drew older people, and it was usually the older ones that got into arguments and things. But they played Goshen, South Bend, and LaPorte, and well, different ah—St. Mary’s didn’t have a team. There were no other team in town, but the Michigan City High School football team—I mean school team. And Elkhart and, ah…

Interviewer: Did the school have cheerleaders? I’m just curious.

Mrs. Crumpacker: No, they didn’t have cheerleaders. No, that came many years later.

Interviewer: I just wondered because I know a lot of early cheerleaders were boys. They didn’t have girls (indecipherable).

Mrs. Crumpacker: No, but that was long after this. And the track was more or less—why, I know they always had a relay team and cross-country. And not like you think of it today.

Interviewer: Did the students start dating early in high school, like they do today?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Dating? Well, not quite as early as they do now.

Interviewer: When was this popular? Or when did, you know?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, for instance, all the dances and all the parties were always chaperoned. And, oh, yes, of course, people dated, but not as you think of it now.

Interviewer: What would have been a fun date then? What would have been a popular date when you were in high school?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, usually there were two or three couples, and I can’t really tell you. Usually at someone’s house, but dating as you think now wasn’t done in those days. Well, it was done, but not like you think of it now. And—but you’d have a date but you’d stay home. Yes. The girls dated, but there wasn’t any place to go. And finally, when they had a few nickel shows, as they called ‘em, why the parents didn’t approve very much about going. Most of the dates were right at home.

Interviewer: What would they do then? (indecipherable)

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, they used to pop popcorn and pull—taffy pulls was quite a thing and make fudge and very dull-sounding to you now. But there wasn’t any place. And then you’d have a date to go to band concerts, but usually two or three couples would go together. And see there weren’t automobiles way back then. And people had horses and buggies that once in a while a parent would let their son use the horse and buggy for take a ride, very dull. But most of the dating was done in kind of in groups. And if you had a date alone, you’d be home—have it at home. And don’t worry, your family stayed right up.

Interviewer: Now would they entertain the date in the parlor?

Or would….

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, yes.

Interviewer: I didn’t know if the date would be good enough for the parlor or not.

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, yes. You had your date in the parlor, but usually you would go out and make fudge in the kitchen. And that was quite the thing to do.

Interviewer: Then, I might as well go straight on to weddings, then. What was the most accepted age to get married? Now for a while I know it was very late, and now again it’s starting to become (indecipherable) very, very late.

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, of course, way back it was very—they were very young. Then they got to a point, as you say, that they didn’t marry until they got out of college so that the age let up. But, of course, just like it is now, they married at all ages.

Interviewer: What kind of weddings were held then?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, it was a beautiful church wedding and then there were a great many home weddings, and getting married at home. But the majority of people were married at church.

Interviewer: Did they have like bridal showers then, too, or…

Mrs. Crumpacker: I don’t recall. Well, I do later when I was grown and married, that the younger crowd, but in my generation, I don’t recall any showers. Now if they had ‘em, I don’t—they didn’t mean much of something.

Interviewer: Did they have receptions, though? Wedding receptions?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, yes. Always.

Interviewer: Were these usually held in rented halls? Or the home?

Mrs. Crumpacker: No, most all—well, for instance, church weddings they’d ah—if their homes were large enough, they’d have the wedding reception at home. If not, they’d have it in Neimer Hall later on. And way back when I was a little girl, they had a lot of wedding receptions in Mozart Hall on Second and also in that building at the corner of Michigan and Franklin on the third floor. It—I don’t know, later on that became the first superior court room. But most of the wedding receptions were held in homes.

Interviewer: Were they ah—how long would they last? Were they elaborate affairs?

Mrs. Crumpacker: You mean the wedding reception?

Interviewer: Yes.

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, it depends on the time of day. A great many weddings were formal, and they were at eight o’clock at night. And then the most I remember were married at what they called High Noon, that’s twelve o’clock at Noon. And then the reception would be after the wedding in the afternoon. And then the evening weddings, of course, they were eight o’clock.

Interviewer: Would they have a reception then, too?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, yes. But most of those were held in the home.

Interviewer: Would they have—at a reception would there be music and dancing or was it…

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, I don’t think dancing, except those that were held in the halls, because I don’t think—I don’t recall any in the homes. Of course, when I—in those days, why I was a little girl. I didn’t go to the weddings. My family went, so it’s hard to tell very much about. But as I grew up and was invited to them, most of the weddings were held at home and a small reception following the ceremony. Not great big deals like they have today.

Interviewer: Then, I guess from weddings we can go to funerals. How were the funerals—we were talking before and you said the parlor was used a lot. The parlor in the home was sometimes never used until there was a funeral.

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, yes. When the minister called. No, you see there were no mortuaries. I mean like you think of ‘em today. There was, I think, two undertakers as I remember. Mr. A. F. Earl and Hass.

Interviewer: And all they had to do was bury a body. They didn’t have nothing to do with (indecipherable)?

Mrs. Crumpacker: No, they’d embalm right in the home. Yes, they’d embalm in the home and they’d be laid out in the home. And then when the funeral was in a church, then they’d take the body from the home to the church. Like now, they take it from the mortuary to the church. And people came to call at the home, just like you go to the mortuary now.

Interviewer: Did ah—I’ve seen pictures of homes that had---they used to put big black wreaths or bows on them

Mrs. Crumpacker: They always when anyone died they were kept right at home. And then they would, on the front door, if it was a child it would be a white wreath with white ribbons, and for a middle-aged a lavender or pink, and an older person black.

Interviewer: I didn’t realize there was a color difference.

Mrs. Crumpacker: Uh-huh. And little children were always buried in white caskets. And then, of course, the hearses were all horse-drawn, you see.

Interviewer: Did the horses used to have black plumes on them?

Mrs. Crumpacker: No, no. That was only for royalty. Maybe some places, but not around here.

Interviewer: How long were they allowed the bodies to lie in state in the parlor?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, usually if the person died, say, in the morning and they’d embalm them and they were always put in a room for a length of time and then into the casket and into the parlor, and then the people came to call, and then practically the same now as in a mortuary only it was in the home. And the first mortuary was where White and Hummers is now. It was the Hummer Mortuary, and that’s the first one. But, well, Ott’s, but it wasn’t until later years that they rebuilt. And then, of course, Carlisle’s came on much later. And then there was one on Tenth Street. H-a-a-s, Hass’ and I don’t know much about that. And those were the only ones that I recall were the Hummer Mortuary, the Ott Mortuary, and that one on Tenth Street, the Hass’. I don’t recall any others. And now, of course, we have a colored mortuary, and there aren’t too many in town when you stop and think. I would say there was maybe six. Let’s see they’d be Root’s and Ott’s and the colored one—what’s the name of that—Coleman or somethin’, and White and Hummer and Carlisle’s. I don’t recall any others. Do you? No, I’m sure that’s all there are in the town. And that one on Tenth Street, that Haas one, that one didn’t last very long. He died and then she made it into apartments, and I think it’s still standing there. It’s next to the little white church. It’s a red brick building, and I think there are four apartments. But that was a building for mortuary.

Interviewer: Well, as long as we’re on the topic of ceremonies, what would a high school graduation—what would your—the ceremony involve then?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, just exactly what they are today.

Interviewer: Gowns?

Mrs. Crumpacker: We didn’t wear cap and gowns. The girls wore white dresses and the boys dark suits, and cap and gowns came in quite a long time after I graduated. And I was trying to think, oh, it was several years before they started it, to have cap and gowns. And, ah…

Interviewer: Would there be a speech? Or…

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, they had a valedictorian. And they had to—and then on Sunday different churches, different years, would have the baccalaureate and you’d go to the church for that. And they usually had somebody well-known from out of town that give the address to the graduating class, and you walked up, got your diploma (indecipherable). Of course, there weren’t many that walked up like there are now. But, you see, the town was small. When you stop and think everybody kind of knew who everybody was and there were groups that were always together, I mean—I can’t explain it to you, but your neighborhood, the folks that lived in your neighborhood, why, they were your close friends, although there were others scattered around.

Interviewer: Now what would be a neighborhood? Now it would be a city block, but when you were growing up, there weren’t that many people lived on one block.

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, yes. Now in our neighborhood I would say it started at Sixth Street and went to about Ninth Street, and then over to Pine Street and Washington Street, but beyond that I don’t recall knowing anybody that lived over there. I maybe did, but I’ve forgotten.

Interviewer: Did your neighborhood—were there ever anything just like neighborhood picnics? Were there ever neighborhood picnics, just in neighborhoods (indecipherable)?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, well, no, they were more what they called lawn parties. I told you about that. But oh, families would have picnics, three or four families together would have it and usually had ‘em down in the park or down on the beach.

Interviewer: Oh, did you go to the beach much when you were growing up?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, yes. You had to—of course, the only way we could get there was to walk. And, ah….

Interviewer: What kind of bridge did they have up then, when you were…? What kind of bridge was that when you (indecipherable)?

Mrs. Crumpacker: A bridge, well, just a bridge that turned and let boats through, and then when they built the new bridge, why, they ferried you across in a rowboat. There was a cable and then you’d pull on that and it’d take you across while the new bridge was being built or was repaired or anything.

Interviewer: What would you do, then, when you went down to the beach?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Go in swimming. And there was no bathhouse, so the mothers would take quilts and things and would—for you to get undressed—and lots of times you’d undress to get all ready at home and then take your clothes in a little basket. But there was no bathhouse until, oh, I was quite grown up. But when I was a little girl, the families would go and the mothers would fix the little blankets to change the children’s clothes.

Interviewer: Would you ever go by yourself to the beach?

Mrs. Crumpacker: No, no, no, never, no. Oh not until when I was grown, of course, but no, no. They would never let little children go down there. They were always with older people. Well, you see, there were no lifeguards or nothing like that. They couldn’t let little children go. And it meant crossing the Michigan Central tracks and it was too dangerous a thing. And, of course, there were no swimming pools in those days.

Interviewer: What else would you do down by the beach? Was there (indecipherable)?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, you’d usually go down, go swimming, and then have our picnic, and then come home.

Interviewer: They didn’t have any of the amusement things then?

Mrs. Crumpacker: No, nothing. No, it was just the beach, a beautiful beach, of course. And then gradually the park was developed; and of course, they had band concerts, as they do now every Thursday night. And everybody used to go to band concerts. That was quite the thing to do.

Interviewer: Did the area look like it does now? Or has it changed much, the area around, you know?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Down in the park?

Interviewer: Yes.

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, no, the layout is practically the same. Only, of course, in later years they had all the amusements like merry-go-rounds, and then they’d, oh, for a long time, they had what they called the Oasis. It was a big dancing pavilion, which—I think it burned, but anyway it isn’t there anymore. And it was so different than it is now. Yes.

Interviewer: Because the zoo was not there when you were small?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, no, no.

Interviewer: What was that area then? What did it look like?

Mrs. Crumpacker: It was a sand dune. No, there wasn’t anything. The water works was always there. Of course, the Naval Armory wasn’t there. And…

Interviewer: Remember Ma Brown’s Ice Cream?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, indeed. That was the one high spot of going to the—she made her own ice cream cones.

Interviewer: Were they good?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, wonderful. And she made her own ice cream. And it was the first time, outside of at home, I’d ever had a hamburger. She did hamburgers, and that was really somethin’. But those ice cream cones, she made them. You could see her make ‘em, and it was like a waffle thing. Then she’d take and make ‘em into little cones and then they’d be cooled and then she put the dipper of ice cream in. You ate that cone right down to the very tip—it was so good. But I remember when she started having hamburgers, and that was a great treat to go and have one; and as I remember when I think about those ice cream cones that were so wonderful, they were Five Cents apiece. And the hamburgers were Ten Cents, and someone thought that that was a little—they should have kept those at Five Cents. She got Ten Cents, but they were really elegant ‘cause she bought only the best of everything. But she was really an institution, Ma Brown’s.

Interviewer: Did she have more than one flavor of ice cream? Or did you just have—how many flavors of…?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, just vanilla. Vanilla ice cream. Of course, there were other flavors. Most of the drug stores, you know, had soda fountains and usually the assortment would be chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry. And I know there was a place in Chicago, called Krantz’s. It was a perfectly beautiful ice cream parlor, and that was right across from where Marshall Field’s is now. And when you’d go to Chicago, that was one of the places to go. And they had all flavors of ice cream in it. It was a beautiful place, and it was right on State Street—Krantz’s. And then there was another place, would be back of where Carson, Pirie was in Chicago, called Plow’s. P-l-o-w; and they, I remember, you could—‘cause they had—you could have lunch. It was very, very beautifully done, and they were famous for their chicken salad, and that was a great treat. And the first time I ever tasted pistachio ice cream, I thought I’d never tasted anything so divine ‘cause it’s Plow’s. Well, Krantz’s stayed in business, and I don’t know, I don’t think it’s more than four or five years ago that that was closed and sold. Maybe it was longer, but I can remember going into Chicago to shop and always going over the Krantz’s across from Fields. So that hasn’t been out of existence too long. And I know when they closed it, why, they sold the tables and chairs and all, and it was a typically—oh it was beautifully done in marble and beautiful showcase, and their candy was something to talk about. And it was just all in marble and lovely statues and mirrors, and it was quite a treat to go there.

Interviewer: Did you get to go there often when you were growing up?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Yes, every time we’d go to Chicago, we always…

Interviewer: Did you go to Chicago often?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Well, quite often. Not when I was a little girl. Oh, they didn’t—when I was older, you’d go in and shop. But usually I’d go in on the Michigan Central, go in on an early train in the morning, then there was a train in the early evening to come back. There was no South Shore, you see. The only way you could get in was to take the Michigan Central. There was no such thing as driving in.

Interviewer: Did you ever take the excursion boats over? The excursion boats?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Oh, yes. They—that—in the summer that was the big attraction. They went back and forth every day. You’d leave early in the morning and go over. And then there was a boat that left in the evening. There was one that left early, and then one left after the theaters were out. And they ah—there was the "Mary" and the "Sioux City" and the "Theodore Roosevelt" and the—then there was a boat that would come down from Milwaukee called a whale back, and it was a very odd kind of a shape thing. And that was quite a thing to see that come in. And then Yacht Day was the big day here. The Columbia Yacht Race. Ever since I can remember they always had it around the 14^th of June, and we’d always go down to watch the yachts come in, and then go down on Sunday to see them leave. And, of course, now they have races all the time, but that was just the one race a year and it was usually around the 14^th of June, called the Columbia Yacht Race. And then this big excursion boat called the Sioux City would bring all the visitors over. And Yacht Day was quite a day here. Not many people owned yachts. There were boats in Michigan City, and they started the Yacht Club and it grew. And very interesting, if you ever—I wondered, I think I threw it away—to get out this called the Windjammer. They send it to members. And I think—I’m not sure—well, no it was started in the last one—the history of the Yacht Club. Now, I’ll tell you who’d have that, would be Walter Calvert because he was one of the main ones in the beginning; he and well, he’d be the one that could give you the whole picture of the beginning of the Yacht Club and all that. And if I had saved those things, I could have given ‘em to you. But you can get it from him, and they are very interesting. How they started the thing and how it grew; and now, of course, just to sit down and look at those—when you stop and think of the money that sitting in that basin. And, of course, the Yacht Club itself is delightful. There’s four widows….

Interviewer: Talking about restaurants, when you were growing up were there very many public restaurants around?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Yes, there were quite a few. There was the Bremen Hotel. There was a Fairview Hotel. That was on Second Street. And that was a family hotel.

Interviewer: Yeah, I was just going to ask you if it was popular to take your family out?

Mrs. Crumpacker: Yes. Oh, we used to go down there usually on Sundays. And that was on Second Street. Then the Bremen Hotel, they had a restaurant in there. Then there was another restaurant. I never—I ate there once as I recall—Schultz’s Restaurant. Then, oh, there was John Carroll’s Restaurant, his food—there were lots of restaurants. Then on Seventh Street, in this new building, one-half of it was called a buffet where they served liquor and the other side just food—the café and that food was wonderful. And, let’s see if there were any other restaurants? I don’t recall any. Way back you meant?

Interviewer: Um-hmm. I was interested in finding out whether or not people took their families out to eat (indecipherable).

Mrs. Crumpacker: Yes, it was a usually family thing. It was, well, now the one on Seventh Street, that was a little more up to date and that was open late at night, but the others were open for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, but Sundays. And then there were two boarding houses in town. One was called Pletz’s and the other was called—no three—and Constance…

(Tape ends abruptly.)